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Puzzletome Discuss all aspects of the Puzzletome website
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Guess limits |
Like them a lot |
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23% |
[ 10 ] |
They're okay, I guess |
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18% |
[ 8 ] |
Indifferent |
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30% |
[ 13 ] |
I don't like them much |
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16% |
[ 7 ] |
Argh, I hate them, I hate you and I'll leave forever if you have them |
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9% |
[ 4 ] |
Other (please leave a comment) |
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2% |
[ 1 ] |
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Total Votes : 43 |
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Titanium22 your chamber lye breeds fleas
Joined: 14 Sep 2003 Posts: 12253
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Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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DaisyDeepdelver wrote: | Puzzlemakers could use a list of guesses to see which wrong ideas are provoced by their puzzles (and enjoy themselves besides improve their next puzzles I think). |
Contest writers *do* see all the attempted answers that have been submitted.
bethfay wrote: | Both as a puzzle-solver and as a puzzle-setter, I have seen that sheer guessing is almost always useless as a well-designed puzzle is solveable and the answer is virtually unguessable. |
Bethfay is absolutely right in what she says. In the vast majority of cases, we can see very clearly that people are just entering random guesses with no understanding at all of how a puzzle works.
Occasionally we can see that people have the right idea - for example they have typed something incorrectly or they have found a few correct letters and are trying to guess the answer without doing any more work - but a guess limit of (say) 15 would certainly create no problem under those circumstances.
T22 _________________ Puzzletome - for serious riddlers |
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ASA Thou craven dread-bolted clotpole
Joined: 03 Feb 2004 Posts: 5221 Location: Adelaide, Australia
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Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:14 am Post subject: |
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DaisyDeepdelver wrote: | Puzzlemakers could use a list of guesses to see which wrong ideas are provoced by their puzzles (and enjoy themselves besides improve their next puzzles I think).
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I got the ideas for the gateways of ASA III, from the wrong answers submitted to the gateways of ASA II _________________ Alan
Puzzletome : It is a puzzle to me too |
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mistermickster Thou detestable maw
Joined: 19 Feb 2004 Posts: 1414 Location: Nottingham, England
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Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe we should create a contest for the people who like to guess or brute force the answers.
We could have a set of 'puzzles', consisting of nothing but a blank screen with a submit box. A guessers paradise. _________________ Lead on adventurer, your quest awaits. |
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xyphic Forum git
Joined: 14 Sep 2003 Posts: 2804 Location: Cambridge, UK
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Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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mistermickster wrote: | Maybe we should create a contest for the people who like to guess or brute force the answers.
We could have a set of 'puzzles', consisting of nothing but a blank screen with a submit box. A guessers paradise. |
Heh, won't somebody please think of the database! _________________ Puzzletome - Confusion now hath made his masterpiece! |
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stozz Pernicious and indubitate beggar
Joined: 23 Mar 2004 Posts: 356 Location: Nottingham, England
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Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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Personally I can see no added value to this gimmick. If I may ask, why do you want a restriction on guesses? Is the server not coping?
Let's be honest - there are some puzzles out there that, to put it mildly, aren't great. I have resulted to blind guessing in the past, usually when I have found a puzzle so unworkable that the only way to get through it is to blast some guesses through while waiting for a decipherable hint. I also occasionally use the art of blind guessing as a medium for conveying my opinions about a puzzle - I don't know if this has ever come across as intended.
Some puzzles have ambiguous answers, some (very very few) puzzles have incorrect answers. By administering a guess count you are saying that your puzzles are completely devoid of ambiguity, have no controversial aspects, and are 100% logical; no offence to everyone but I haven't seen a contest like that on any website for a long while (okay so Labyrinth is different because SP never makes mistakes ).
I completely agree with the comment that you should be allowed to see what guesses you have already made on a puzzle. I frequently end up typing in an answer twice, or even thrice, because I'm not 100% sure I've tried it before and it's better to be safe than sorry. This will have to come in if the guess limiter is approved.
Going back to my previous point, I would prefer to look at *why* some puzzles are subjected to brute force and blind guessing and learn from those mistakes.
Jon
Last edited by stozz on Tue Aug 21, 2007 10:59 am; edited 1 time in total |
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SparkPlug Because I can
Joined: 30 Jan 2004 Posts: 11973 Location: Here!
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Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 9:00 am Post subject: |
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The reason I wanted to introduce it was simply to prevent/deter people from attempting to pass puzzles without actually trying to solve them.
The reason I did introduce it was because I was confident that this would have absolutely no impact on those people who do try to solve properly. In fact, I was confident that these people would ultimately stop noticing that it was even there!
Now, why did I want to prevent people from 'passing' rather than solving puzzles? Well, for the same reason we devoted so much time to monitoring external forums and policing our own... to ensure that, as far as possible, the podium (hall of fame) contains only those people who deserve to be there and that, in turn, they can remain proud to be one of the few (3%) who actually escaped!
Curiously, I had been pondering whether or not to retain it (for those of you mental enough to re-enter the Labyrinth) and this poll, together with the general feedback, have convinced me that I should.
I too have resorted to "guessing while waiting" in the past. For me also it was a means of venting frustration and conveying my thoughts (though I suspect my submissions were probably less subtle than stozz's). However, these were never really serious attempts to pass the puzzle (even if the occasional pleasant theme-tune of a surprise did materialise!) and, had the restriction been in place, I would have been perfectly happy to kick the cat instead! |
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The Hirsute One Hairy but harmless
Joined: 20 Jul 2006 Posts: 17364 Location: Croydon, Surrey, UK
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Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 9:22 am Post subject: |
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With reference to the previous post, and on the grounds of animal safety, may I suggest that those people with cats vote against a guess limit. _________________ Why does the Puzzlinactivity team confuse Halloween and Christmas? Because OCT 31= DEC 25. |
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SparkPlug Because I can
Joined: 30 Jan 2004 Posts: 11973 Location: Here!
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Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 9:25 am Post subject: |
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It originally said "wife" but I edited. |
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xyphic Forum git
Joined: 14 Sep 2003 Posts: 2804 Location: Cambridge, UK
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Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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One of the applications of a guess limit that I find fairly nice (okay, amusing) is that the limit could be graded throughout the contest. For early, easy puzzles, there may not even be a limit. This would encourage newcomers to carry on. (Or the limit could be say 20 guesses per hour, which would encourage them to try things out but not to brute force).
For later puzzles, a very restrictive guess limit could be applied where you can only have one guess every 10 minutes for instance. This would discourage random guesswork, and eliminate the element of luck that sometimes helps one team gain a critical advantage.
I'm not saying that's how it *will* be used, or even if it will be used at all. But it's one application. Whether it adds to the fun or just makes it tedious is something that we'll only know by trying it out.
On a related note, I'm thinking about how to deal with guesses you've tried before. It'll be easy enough to discount previous attempts for a puzzle (so even if you do enter something you've already tried, it won't register as a guess) but in general it'd be nice to know what you've tried. Does anyone have any feel for how this should appear to the user? I was thinking of doing something technical like make a list of answers you've already tried appear as you're typing. _________________ Puzzletome - Confusion now hath made his masterpiece! |
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T_Hunter Thou whoreson cullionly barbermonger
Joined: 23 Aug 2006 Posts: 111
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Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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With respect to the guess limit, I think that's a pretty reasonable approach xyphic ... especially taking a graded approach (but I would never resort to 1 per unit of time because of risk of a typo) ...
Regarding prior guesses, I would lay it out as follows (of course, I can't center this, so I'll use the quote tag and fake it badly):
'centered text' wrote: |
[ answer entry box ] [SUBMIT]
______________________________________<HR>
previous attempts: first attempt, second attempt
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Once the correct answer has been accepted, then:
'centered text' wrote: |
Answer = correct answer
______________________________________<HR>
previous attempts: first attempt, second attempt
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Of course, previous attempts could be placed in order of most recent first, and then, perhaps showing only the most recent 10 or 20 maximum. _________________ "The legend writ, the stain affected.
The key in Silence undetected.
Fifty-five in iron pen,
Mr. Matlack can't offend."
"Why can't they just say, go to this place, here's the treasure, spend it wisely?" |
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The Hirsute One Hairy but harmless
Joined: 20 Jul 2006 Posts: 17364 Location: Croydon, Surrey, UK
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Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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T_Hunter wrote: | With respect to the guess limit, I think that's a pretty reasonable approach xyphic ... especially taking a graded approach (but I would never resort to 1 per unit of time because of risk of a typo) ... | Must agree with that... how gutting to lose a contest while waiting for a retry after a typo
T_Hunter wrote: | Regarding prior guesses, I would lay it out as follows | Hmmm - is it just me or do previous attempts come up automatically as an alphabetical drop down list when typing in a similar answer? I have used this several times to check whether I have tried a particular format for an answer. _________________ Why does the Puzzlinactivity team confuse Halloween and Christmas? Because OCT 31= DEC 25. |
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T_Hunter Thou whoreson cullionly barbermonger
Joined: 23 Aug 2006 Posts: 111
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Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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That is a browser feature, certainly with IE and I imagine Firefox as well. With IE, it is referred to as AutoComplete (Tools, Internet Options ..., Content tab, Autocomplete).
It's generally recommended that you disable this for forms, and especially, user names and passwords on forms ... for obvious reasons, i.e. someone else using your PC, or a PC you were using, could see what you have entered previously.
The Hirsute One wrote: |
Hmmm - is it just me or do previous attempts come up automatically as an alphabetical drop down list when typing in a similar answer? I have used this several times to check whether I have tried a particular format for an answer. |
_________________ "The legend writ, the stain affected.
The key in Silence undetected.
Fifty-five in iron pen,
Mr. Matlack can't offend."
"Why can't they just say, go to this place, here's the treasure, spend it wisely?" |
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mistermickster Thou detestable maw
Joined: 19 Feb 2004 Posts: 1414 Location: Nottingham, England
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Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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I'm confused.
Only a short time ago, I was reading T22's excellent post on this issue, and now it appears to have gone.
Must have hit somebody's raw nerve _________________ Lead on adventurer, your quest awaits. |
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Titanium22 your chamber lye breeds fleas
Joined: 14 Sep 2003 Posts: 12253
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Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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mistermickster wrote: | Only a short time ago, I was reading T22's excellent post on this issue, and now it appears to have gone.
Must have hit somebody's raw nerve |
Indeed. Xyphic has also removed his own post in response to mine, but I reinstate it here.
Xyphic wrote: | I'm moving this out for now, as I've already had one complaint about it and I feel it might serve to alienate some of our regular members (as they're very likely to recognise themselves in it!). I understand the sentiment, and agree with it, but I think it's a bit strong. |
If there is any interest in free speech and open debate, I can also reinstate my own post if people want to see it. Lucky that I kept a copy in anticipation of whingers, isn't it...LOL!
T22 _________________ Puzzletome - for serious riddlers |
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stozz Pernicious and indubitate beggar
Joined: 23 Mar 2004 Posts: 356 Location: Nottingham, England
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Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:33 am Post subject: |
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I would very much like to see it - especially if I have the enjoyment of working out which bits have a dig at me
T22, how about you send me a PM with it?
Jon
EDIT: Rofl (almost literally) having now read the deleted post. It was slightly easy to work out which bit related to me though |
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