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arwin
Thy mothers name is ominous to children


Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 43
Location: USA

PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2004 2:55 pm    Post subject: HINTING POLICY AND ITS FAIRNESS Reply with quote

I don't want to start a cat fight or anything. But I was just thinking about the hint policy and in a way, it seems rather unfair.
What you all are saying is that if no one gets the answer to a riddle in a certain amount of time (ie 4 days for round 4) then a hint will be given. However, this ONLY APPLIES TO THE LEADERS???
Think about it - they are the leaders because they DIDN'T NEED HINTS. They flew through these puzzles like homing pidgeons. Then there are those that are always on the leaders heels. Just a few behind at times and always struggling 24/7 to keep the gap closed. They shouldn't rely on hints because they are obviously smart enough to stay ahead of the mainstream riddlers but have to riddle all the time just to keep caught up. Then there are the mainstream riddlers who really want to be in the lead but don't have the benefit of a big team (10+ members) nor the previous riddling experience to know how to solve many of these. They are at a clear disadvantage and deserve to have more hints after struggling for a few days on a riddle.
If you leave it up to the leaders to decide who they're going to give hints to and when, then there won't be many people progressing. Especially if they get to a really really hard one that they don't know how to solve, they certainly aren't going to give hints to someone who is say 5 or 6 behind them.
IN MY OPINION (and this is only an opinion) - I think the mods should make an additional rule that states something along the line of this:
IF the leaders get past riddle D for example without a hint (although they struggled almost to the time limit of needing one) ,
AND another team arrived at riddle D say 2 days later and struggled past the time limit for a hint,
THEN there should be a SET TIME after the leaders pass that riddle before the mods themselves can give a hint.

Let's say Team A arrives at riddle 1 on the 1st. They struggle but finally pass it without a hint on the 4th. Then Team B arrives at riddle 1 on the 3rd and still has not passed it by the 7th (4 days later). Then I'm thinking if Team B still has not passed the riddle one week after the time it took Team A to solve it, then they deserve a hint. So in this example, if Team A passed it after 3 days of struggling, then Team B would get their hint 10 days after their arrival at the same riddle (or in this example, the 13th).

It's just a suggestion but it seems QUITE fair and still allows the mods to hint even when the leaders refuse to.
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Rebecca
Thou whoreson cullionly barbermonger


Joined: 16 Sep 2003
Posts: 128
Location: Perth

PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2004 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Being in the leading team I don't see anything wrong with your suggestion - mind you this is only my opinion I don't speak for the group as a whole, they may like this or not - its up to them to say so.
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chantilly
Pernicious and indubitate beggar


Joined: 16 Sep 2003
Posts: 363
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2004 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be honest, I don't think there is a hinting policy that would be totally fair to all players. I can see your point Arwin and agree with you in principle. However, until someone has passed a particular riddle, it's impossible to tell whether there's enough information/direction given to enable anyone to pass it without a hint of some kind. But if people have managed to pass it without a hint, this proves that its at least solveable no matter how long it takes. (And as certain players keep pointing out, if they are only playing for fun and not to win, then the amount of time it takes to solve a puzzle shouldn't really be a problem as long as they are having fun doing so).

The leaders have a disadvantage in that should we be held up for 5 days on a riddle that needs more direction (while in the meantime, everyone else is catching up), the hint we get will be posted in the forum. This will enable future players to have an in-built hint as soon as they reach the riddle so no 5-day wait for them. This effectively demolishes any lead that has been built up which again can't really be deemed fair.

I acknowledge that this is an extremely difficult problem to administer as everyone, depending upon their position in the leaderboard, will have a seemingly valid viewpoint. In an ideal world, there should be no need for hints because the puzzles should have been written in a way that offers all the pointers needed to solve it but I appreciate that puzzles like this are not easy to write and a few will slip through which need that little extra something.
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legs
Is thy name Mouldy?


Joined: 30 Jan 2004
Posts: 250
Location: Hiding from SparkPlug, he is a bully

PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2004 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also see where the leaders are coming from on the issue of hinting. BUT, let's see it in this scenario, what would happen if we were to solve the riddle we are now on and for some miracle get the next two fairly quickly? You guys have been stuck on this for almost the 5 day limit to get a hint, but because we have just solved it you no longer get one. This is where the situation gets tricky.
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Stretham
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Joined: 15 Sep 2003
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2004 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hope you all read this, because it affects you all. I think there's been a bit of a misunderstanding about what we plan to do in the situation where the 2nd or lower placed teams get stuck on a riddle. Please ignore everything you might have thought before, here is clarification:

If ANY team/player is stuck on a given riddle past the minimum time where there are no hints already available, and that player/team ask for a hint, they will be given one. This hint will go on the forum. I repeat this is irrespective of position in the contest.

Further clarification on cases where different things apply (I believe these are the root of the misunderstanding):

1. A team/player (for instance the leaders) may choose NOT to have a hint after the time period. Any team/player who subsequently catch up must wait the full time.
2. If the corresponding thread on the forum already contains hints, the admin team reserve the right not to add further hints if they consider what is there is sufficient.

Stretham
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chantilly
Pernicious and indubitate beggar


Joined: 16 Sep 2003
Posts: 363
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2004 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for clarifying that Stretham. It all makes a great deal of sense now. I don't envy you as it must be a thankless task trying to please the lot of us Smile And it is definitely one of those situations that look different depending upon where you're looking at it from.
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legs
Is thy name Mouldy?


Joined: 30 Jan 2004
Posts: 250
Location: Hiding from SparkPlug, he is a bully

PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2004 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for that Stretham
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anangelinurpocket
Is thy name Mouldy?


Joined: 30 Jan 2004
Posts: 254
Location: Brisbane Australia

PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2004 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thank you once again Stretham, for your clear and concise information.

I must say I love the site but have been bemused by the misunderstanding proclaimed.

when is asking for a hint begging for a hint.
when is proferring thoughts begging for a hint
whilst asking for clarification maybe is not asking for hints .. gee im soo confused
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vraal
Thy mothers name is ominous to children


Joined: 30 Jan 2004
Posts: 44

PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2004 1:15 am    Post subject: begging for hints. Reply with quote

All summed up with one statement:

If you take a comment as an accusation, then the shoe fits.
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anangelinurpocket
Is thy name Mouldy?


Joined: 30 Jan 2004
Posts: 254
Location: Brisbane Australia

PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2004 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nothing less was expected ..
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arwin
Thy mothers name is ominous to children


Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 43
Location: USA

PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2004 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes thank you very much for the clarification - I was fully under the impression that ONLY the lead team was allowed the hint after the alloted time period. There is hope then and that's all I was asking for. We really shouldn't rely so much on hints anyway! I know how easy it is to get caught up in that routine (ie well they helped on that one maybe they'll help again). But unless you just say no hints period, then it IS hard being fair about it. I can't speak for everyone but we do appreciate how hard you all work in creating huge contests like this - whether we enjoy a particular puzzle or not Wink
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Stretham
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Joined: 15 Sep 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Further clarification of hinting:

If a hint is posted for the leading team, then any subsequent teams arriving on that puzzle will still have to wait the full time limit before they receive any further help.

I accept the mods may have slipped slightly in this respect, but that was because we were in new territory and hadn't clarified ourselves what we would do. The above will be adhered to from now on.

Stretham
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Missinthia
O ho monster


Joined: 16 Feb 2004
Posts: 17

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2004 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course there are a lot of people who started much later then the leading team. And because of the hints they are going very fast. But why is that bad? If a team is better then the rest they don't need to be afraid they won't win this. If a team started on a later date and manages to win this thing, then that's because they are better, or else they wouldn't win.

I only started two weeks ago. If I knew of this puzzle earlier, I would have started earlier and of course would have gotten much further by now.

So, I think the rules on giving hints are very fair.

I also have a disadvantage because I'm Dutch. English is a foreign language for me, but I'm not complaining about that. I chose to play in this contest knowing it's completely in English.
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FalconNL
Thou damned and luxurious mountain goat


Joined: 17 Sep 2003
Posts: 60
Location: Holland

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2004 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello fellow dutchman!

Welkom op Puzzletome. In principe maakt het niet dat je uit een ander land komt, zolang je maar een redelijke kennis hebt van de Engelse taal. Bij mijn weten zaten er in deze wedstrijd weining echt britse verwijzingen. Als je echt het zekere voor het onzekere wil nemen, begin dan een team met minimaal een brit en een amerikaan.

In ieder geval, veel succes met deze wedstrijd en je verdere raadselcarrière (als je nog niet verslaafd bent dan wordt je het nog wel, geloof me Very Happy)
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Strife777
Thou whoreson cullionly barbermonger


Joined: 18 Sep 2003
Posts: 119

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2004 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wish I spoke foreign languages 1/10th as well as you speak English. Smile Sorry, I know its off topic.
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